Today’s post is an exploration of the portrayal of fatherhood in Star Wars with Dr. Jeremy Toffle on his Imperfect Dad MD Podcast. My last post was about our discussion on dad life and charting. After recording that podcast we decided to hit record again and talk about something else we love: Star Wars.
Dr. Toffle is a pediatrician who’s on a mission to help physician dads become the parent they strive to be. Hopefully that means being a parent unlike those in Star Wars, as you’ll see below.
What follows is the transcript of our discussion.
You can listen to the podcast episode by searching for his podcast in your favorite podcast app or by clicking here to listen on his page!
Shoot, I Should Have Saved the Stars Wars Scroll Reference for This One!
Jeremy
Hello and welcome to the Imperfect Dad MD Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Toffle, and in today’s episode I am speaking with Dr. Junaid Niazi again. I spoke with him last week about dad life and charting. So if you missed last week’s episode you have to go back and listen [or read here].
We had been chatting for months about Star Wars and dad life. We’re both kind of nerds, and when the Mandalorian was going on, we would comment and send messages back and forth like, “Oh, did you see this episode? What did you think about it?” And we’ve always been planning on talking about how we interpret Star Wars and all these things that are shown in the show and how it relates to dad life.
So when we finished recording last week’s episode, we said, you know what, let’s just do this. Let’s talk about it. And so this show is literally two dads nerding out, talking Star Wars and how it relates to being a dad. So, even if you’re not a nerd, take a listen because there’s a lot of good messages, I think, when you’re looking at being a dad and looking at the Star Wars universe. And so we’re going to talk about that today. Again, this is just—there’s no script here for the day—we literally just kind of talked and it was pretty fun.
Jeremy
Alright, I’m here with Dr. Junaid Niazi. Thanks for joining me to talk a little bit about some nerd dad topics today. I appreciate it.
Junaid
Yeah, I’m excited! I think this has been a long time coming!
Jeremy
Yeah, so we’ve been chatting off-site for a while now about Star Wars and how it relates to dad life and things. And I recently had an episode talking about Marvel movies and dad life, but I definitely think the Star Wars universe has definitely brought up the whole concept of how our dads sometimes shape us in good ways and maybe not as good ways in taking on that father role. So, we’re just going to have a fun time today and talk about dad life in Star Wars movies and even the shows. I guess there’s a lot there’s a lot more out there now than there was when I was younger.
Wait—that means that…I’m old too….
Junaid
Right. Yeah.
Tell me Mando, Mando, Mando
[In case you didn’t get that, it’s an Engelbert Humperdinck reference].
[And yes, that’s a real singer’s name].
Jeremy
And so I, you know, I think, you know, I guess the best place to really start is when The Mandalorian was out, we kind of chatted back and forth about the dad themes with it. And I think it’s, you know, a really cool concept of how you go from this guy who never thought about being a dad or a father figure to anybody—he’s kind of a loner and does his own thing—and where he has, you know, by the end of season 2, season 3 is not out yet—has basically become this, I mean, father first type of figure. And so, yeah, what are your thoughts on it?
Junaid
Yeah, I mean, from the show, The Mandalorian, you know, I think it has the healthiest father-son relationship in Star Wars, you know—
Jeremy
Luke and Vader, maybe not as healthy!
Junaid
Yeah, right! And you know, here we’re talking, it’s spanning species and here the baby is actually probably twice as old as the father, so it’s a little bit interesting.
Twice as old but infinitely cuter!
Jeremy
Ooh, that’s a good comment! So which one is the father? Which one is teaching the other one? That’s—
Junaid
Well, they’re both teaching each other. In terms of more of a protective role, you know, it’s Mando who’s probably done more even though (I guess I have to call him) Grogu did save him from that rhino thing.
Jeremy
Yep. Yep. He did that. I’m trying think where else but yeah, I guess you would say Mando had probably the more of the authoritative protectorship type of mentality—
Junaid
I mean rescuing from the Imperials, the whole ice spider cave horror movie.
Jeremy
Oh my gosh, Yeah. I had to prepare my kids for that and I was like, “All right. This one’s gonna be a little bit different. Please don’t have nightmares. If so, call for your mom!”
But yeah, no, I think it’s interesting because I mean you can relate it so much, I think, to really being a dad. Because before you’re a dad you don’t really think about it, you don’t really prepare for it sometimes. And you know with this whole Mandalorian theme, you start out with this guy who’s just kind of focused on himself. He’s not really interested in really anything but the next job, the next thing that, you know, maybe he’s running away from something.
Then he takes this job and suddenly it’s just you see you see this little being for the first time and something changes in you, right? And it’s I know that is kind of the same thing. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, something’s different here.” And although he tried to complete the mission, he went back and took him back.
And that’s kind of where it led him down this pathway of changing who he was to become somebody better.
The Lore of Mandalore
Junaid
The themes in the show and the emphasis on the characters I think is what has made The Mandalorian such a popular and such good show. When you have standalone episodes that still, you know, connect with one another and they focus really on the character development mainly, and it’s just sort of a great recipe for cranking out a show like that.
When we talked about discussing this on your podcast, I was thinking more about Mando and then what you mentioned, right? He’s this loner, goes around just does these sort of, he’s a, you know, bounty hunter. So he does his missions or bounties that he has to secure and I was sort of laughing because it’s it’s kind of like the gig economy today, right? Like he could be like, you know, a BiteSquad or DoorDash driver, right?
Jeremy
Yeah, right? He’s just doing locum tenens everywhere—
Junaid
Instead of delivering food, he’s delivering mostly people. And maybe in some cases that’s food. But it’s almost like a, you know, some sort of allegory for modern-day gig life, you know?
When you look at what are his motivations at the start of the show, a lot of those come apparent a little bit later in the show, right? So he’s an orphan that has been taken into—he’s not like a native Mandalorian, which was the first big, I think, reveal or shocking thing. Because if you know anything about the planet Mandalore and the Mandalorian people, they’re a very proud culture that came from Mandalore and they are sort of a warrior culture, or at least have warrior sects in their culture. Sects! Not sex! Sorry, S-E-C-T-S. Just to be clear.
Junaid
And here we’re talking about people that are actually not from Mandalore, that are not actually Mandalorian per what we understood to be Mandalorian before, as fans of Star Wars. And they’re sort of adopted—I think they’re all orphans. As part of his…their shared emblems—
Jeremy
His clan.
Forged into a Father
Junaid
Yes, clan! Yeah, I forget those details. But you know, he ends up taking baby Grogu as part of his clan as another orphan under his wing. But you know his motivations initially are to further the causes and help the Mandalorian diaspora of this clan come together, right?
Every time he gets a bounty, he takes it down to the Armorer to spread the wealth and whatever. And sometimes he gets like a little thing of beskar [ed. fancy Star Wars steel like Varyrian steel in Game of Thrones or Damascus steel of medieval fame] and, you know, I think that maybe he thinks beskar is the bee’s knees or whatever.
But, you know, I think he learns the power of fatherhood and love really forges him into something stronger than beskar, right?
His strength by the end of the show is not because he’s a good gunslinger or has super fancy armor. It’s his relationship with Grogu.
Jeremy
Hmm…definitely. And I think that’s a, that’s actually a good comment as you probably see a little bit early on if it’s mainly that paternal instinct when you talk about, you know, he goes down to the Armorer and he takes things and he’s like, “Yeah, make me this piece. But whatever you’ve got leftover, it’s you know, for the foundlings [ed. young orphans being raised by the clan].”
Junaid
Yeah.
Jeremy
And so it’s like there’s definitely that paternal instinct and that, you know, kind of being involved with a clan. And I think you see that throughout, you know, our lives growing up. You’re always a part of some type of clan or tribe or something, and, you know, how you interact with that group maybe dictates how you’re going to be in that parental role.
And then all of a sudden, you know, the Armorer tells him, you know, “You’re a clan of two now.” And so it’s almost like he takes all of that, you know, burden of the original clan he was with and puts it on that father figure role.
Junaid
Well the Armorer sort of freed him from that. I think he was really torn between like, “I’m supposed to be dedicated to my clan in this way—this is the way,” right? And now she’s freed him up to say, “No, he [Grogu] is now your clan, you go take care of him. Give him, you know, deliver him back to his people.”
It’s just, I mean, yeah, that’s I think that’s, that’s what’s so cool about the character development! How many minutes do we get to spend with the Armorer? It’s probably less than five throughout the show. Thus far. Yeah.
Jeremy
Yeah. We’ll see. I don’t know. I’d like to see that character come back. It’s a pretty cool character.
Junaid
This could be a Game of Thrones thing. Right?
Jeremy
I know, right.
Junaid
Comes back in season 8….
The Sacrifices of Parenthood
Jeremy
Yeah, you know, transitioning with that for him, you see all this change and then, you know, you spend the whole series basically of him not wanting to take his helmet off and finally it comes down to, he’s got to make a choice: do you—everything you’ve learned and lived and spoke about all your life, are you going to stick with it versus you take your helmet off so you can find out where that light cruiser is? And he makes a choice and it’s and it’s you know, he realizes he’s got to do it. And I think that’s such a cool moment with him too. He, you know, he makes a choice and it’s that father’s choice.
Thankfully, easier than Sophie’s choice.
Are you going to give up all these things that you feel like meant something to you for something more, in this sense?
Junaid
Yeah. Things that sort of define who you were up until that point, right? And, you know, relating that to our lives in the non Star Wars universe. How many times are we—when I’m locked in a battle with my toddler, one of the hard things I have to take a step back on is, “Is this just about controlling the situation or is this something I can ease up on?”
Am I getting too lax on a boundary or am I just being too controlling? I need to let his personality shine and do this for him. Like where, you know, we often think of the “I take a bullet or whatever for my child,” but I actually think more of the sacrifice of parenthood is in these little moments.
Like, where will I put those neurotic tendencies that maybe drive me, especially as a physician, where can I put those in the back seat? To really, like, make the emphasis on my children learning to navigate the world.
When I think about the show and, you know, ideally I was like, “I’ll totally go back and watch both seasons again before I do this.” And I didn’t get to any of that, so that’s why my memory about the show is a little rusty.
Jeremy
Because we have so much time to do that. Right?
Junaid
Right. Yeah, but thinking back on some of these iconic scenes and just trying to relate them to modern life. It’s interesting how, you know, I can like I just took something that was momentous in the show like him taking off his helmet and link it to a little battle with my toddler.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Junaid
But again, that’s how the show is relatable. I mean, how else would you relate to a space Western bounty hunter, you know, traveling the galaxy to find a baby alien?
Simple. It has this little guy!
Jeremy
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it’s I mean, I think it’s such a good relation because it is so much with parenting: you realize you have to change some of those thoughts and some of those patterns and some of those habits that you’ve done for years and years and years and kind of take a step back and realize, “Okay, is this me just trying to continue how I used to do things? Or do I need to think of things a different way?”
You know, when you do coaching—and I know you guys talk about that for different aspects of life, with how your thoughts control things—and I know I talk about that on my podcast, but that’s such a good, relatable concept.
SPOILER ALERT – We Discuss the End of the Most Recent Season
Jeremy
And then you get the whole ending episode with having to let go of Grogu and let him go learn with his quote-unquote people. Which I mean, you know, Jedi aren’t one race and Mandalorians aren’t one race. It’s an interesting concept there too, but I don’t know. Is that correlated to sending your kids off to college or something? I guess. I don’t know.
Junaid
Well, I mean, you know by the end of season 2, he’s moved beyond just trying to keep Grogu safe. At this point, he’s trying to give them the best life possible. And he understands that that means that maybe he has to be out of the picture for that to happen.
So in such a short amount of time, you know, he’s come to that realization that he might be in Grogu’s way in order for Grogu to live up to his fullest potential and, you know, become, whatever, Jedi, or whatever his species is that he’s meant to be—
Jeremy
We don’t know yet. We still have no name.
Junaid
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, that’s how you know it’s love, right? Because even though he loves Grogu clearly, he knows that’s a sacrifice that he’s making.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Junaid
He’s literally handing Grogu off to a stranger because he knows this person can train Grogu hopefully to help Grogu stay safe. Because he knows Grogu will always be a target—or he’s come to learn that Grogu will always be a target.
Broadening to the Wider Star Wars Universe
Jeremy
Yeah. Yeah, and it’s, you know, I think just looking at the whole series, as we’re talking, I’m trying to go through my head and be like, okay, what’s another good example? What’s another good example of this whole father-son role? And in Star Wars, there probably really isn’t.
So many of the stories are these orphans, right? I mean, you look at Luke—was he technically an orphan? Yes, and no. I mean his dad was alive, but he didn’t know that until much later on.
“Luke, I AM your father.”
“Really? Where have you been this whole time?”
“I mean…doing stuff in this cool suit. Check out my voice!”
I mean, you look at Anakin. He never had a father figure and his role growing up and then becomes Vader due to all the rage that he’s learned. I mean, I guess you could look at Luke and you could look at these other figures that became father figures, so Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda and those kind of people too.
Junaid
And I mean you can argue each of the trilogies, right, is premised off a failed father-son relationship. So the prequels: Anakin and pretty much any male. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, you know, Palpatine. The Force, if he was immaculately conceived as has been suggested, right?
Jeremy
Yep.
Junaid
The original trilogy: you’ve already discussed. In the sequel trilogy: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and Han, who is, you know, storied general, hero of the Rebellion who turns out to be a pretty lousy dad. Ben vis-à-vis Luke in The Last Jedi. And then Kylo Ren with Snoke even.
And then even in the Clone Wars cartoon series, there’s Jango Fett and Boba. Everywhere there’s a failed—
Jeremy
A failed father. So I guess here’s the question then: would the Skywalker Saga have even happened if we had a father figure like the Mandalorian throughout the entire series? Maybe not, who knows?
Junaid
Yeah, we’ll never know. It’ll be interesting to see where Grogu fits in with the sequel trilogy, right?
David Filoni Is the Best Thing to Happen to Star Wars
Junaid
Did you ever watch Dave Filoni who’s sort of helming almost everything with–-thankfully, everything Star Wars related—I think on some behind-the-scenes thing? He was talking about Anakin for episode 1 and The Duel of the Fates between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and how it’s called Duel of the Fates?
Qui-Gon was different from the other Jedi. And Qui-Gon understood. This is all me paraphrasing Dave Filoni, but he basically said that Qui-Gon knew this child needs a father figure and he was sort of assuming that mantle, even though it went against the rest of the Jedi.
And so Qui-Gon knew that if he wasn’t around for this kid, problems will ensue. If you watch episode 1, Obi-Wan is thoroughly annoyed with Anakin, like does not like him. He refers to Anakin like some desert scum or something.
And so it’s really, you know, it’s really that battle that sort of shapes the direction, and the ultimate tragedy of Anakin is from that very first major battle with Darth Maul when he kills Qui-Gon. I thought that was very insightful. And that’s why I love Dave Filoni and everything he touches.
Jeremy
Yeah. No definitely.
When You Can't Figure Out a Character's Sex
Junaid
I don’t know if you’ve watched The Bad Batch?
Jeremy
Mmm. Oh, yeah. Our boys are very into that one too. Yeah.
Junaid
So Omega and Hunter and Wrecker and all. It’s another sort of nice father-daughter mashup.
Jeremy
I guess you’d say that. But yeah, that’s…how do you have a clone of a different sex—that I didn’t get, but—
Junaid
I assumed she was a girl but I don’t really know, I guess.
Jeremy
I think she’s referred to as a girl.
Junaid
Okay.
Jeremy
I think they did.
Junaid
She’s older than them, so it’s also another sort of Mando-Grogu parallel.
Jeremy
See now, I’m gonna have to go back and watch and see if Omega was referred to as a girl. I feel like she was. See now here I go having to figure it all out again.
Not that it matters, but when you’re talking about clone technology and changing up a chromosome there, what are you manipulating for?
Junaid
That’s the only unbelievable thing!
Jeremy
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah, cloning. Normal. Fine.
What's Your Favorite...?
Junaid
Yeah, I have to ask you: what do you think was your favorite Mando-Grogu moment in the series so far?
Jeremy
Oh gosh, you know, I think as a dad it’s, you know, the little things that just annoy Mando during the whole process. Like Grogu eating eggs, and it’s like, “I told you to stop doing that,” and he just looks at him and eats another one, and that’s so my five-year-old. He will look at me and I tell him not to do it and he’ll just look at me and do it like right in my face. Or like when he’s trying to help him rewire something in the ship, and he’s like, “No, do this and then do this,” and he totally does it wrong again and gets zapped!
And it’s just like, yep, that’s yep. That’s pretty much how life is with the kids and toddlers basically. I think it’s those moments. I think it’s like, it was just like, I can totally relate to that. So, yeah, what about you?
Junaid
You know, I think it’s when they sought out Ahsoka Tano and she’s trying to get him to use the Force, right? And so, instead of a baseball and a glove, Mando and Grogu are playing Force catch with that little joystick knob! It was like such a cool analogy to our world, right?
But also the fact that in that moment, you know that Grogu is attached to Mando and that’s what showed Ahsoka that like, I really can’t train him because I saw this happen with Anakin.
So—and that speaks to a larger theme in Star Wars where there’s this whole like, “Nope, you have an attachment. Nope. We’re not going to help you nurture it or find a healthy way to deal with it. We’re just going to shun you and make you figure it out on your own.”
And then somebody later, “We’ll come help you with this and still not address it and then you will probably mess up along the way,” because everyone’s just, like, avoiding the obvious.
Star Wars and Parenting is like Water and Oil
Jeremy
Nobody knows how to parent in the Star Wars world. I guess that’s just how it is.
Junaid
I wrote a, you know, actually wrote three posts on my blog related to Star Wars and coaching. And I think the first one was like, Darth Vader really just needed a life coach. And I talked about, like I say it’s a failure of the Jedi, you know, in all these ways is how they just kept sort of not addressing these issues for him or helping him learn how to navigate the world. Just sort of almost casting shame about it for him.
Jeremy
So yeah, it’s almost like that quintessential, like tough dad mentality. Like, “Nope. Don’t cry. You’re not allowed to feel that way about this, just deal with it. Move on.”
You’re not allowed to have emotions about it or anything like that. So yeah, and obviously speaks to the failure of the whole Council. So—
Junaid
So that’s like probably part of, that’s part of the Jedi ethos, right? Like, it’s almost this noble aim of them to not have attachments. Like they always have bragging rights about it. Right?
And so many of them violate that, right? Like we learn in Clone Wars that Obi-Wan had a fling and such. Maybe we’ll learn more about Obi-Wan on Tatooine.
Jeremy
That’s true, right? Yeah. They got that series coming out.
Junaid
Exactly.
Jeremy
I’m curious to see what happens there.
The Jedi and the Culture of Medicine
Junaid
Where was I going with this? Oh, oh, sorry. I was going to relate it to medicine!
There’s all these again you know, in our prior podcast episode, we talked about the narratives that we have about medicine and a lot of those deal with sort of this noble aim of medicine. And in a lot of ways, there’s obviously good intentions behind that, but I think in some ways, it hurts us or limits us in such a way and how we show up.
It’s how medicine has shaped us, right? Like, we’re not supposed to talk about money things with patients because that’s going to influence our decisions and impact the therapeutic relationship we have with patients. You know, that’s like my father’s generation.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Junaid
And for me, it’s like, no, this is incredibly important to have these discussions because if I’m suggesting something that’s gonna put somebody out on the street, but I’m saying that this is life-threatening, right? Like I have to help them navigate that decision. But if I’m saying, “No, no, no, I can’t have that discussion with them. I just have to say ‘you need to do this.’” Like I mean, it’s super paternalistic and, in a way, it’s almost taking advantage of that power dynamic.
And it’s honestly, it’s almost like an easy way out, at least that’s the way I look at it. I’m sure physicians out there would disagree with me but, you know, I see a lot of sort of similarities between almost the cult of the Jedi and the cult of medicine in that way.
Jeremy
Yeah, now that’s a good transition there. Yeah. A lot to think about with Star Wars and parenting and doctor life and all that. So yeah, that was a good talk. I liked it.
We’ll have to see how season 3 [The Mandalorian] goes. We’ll have to touch on that because I’ll be curious to see how the whole paternal side relates to it. Does Grogu even come back and I feel like they have to I don’t think you can keep them out. So.
Junaid
Yeah, I don’t know what they’re going to do. I don’t know if I’m gonna enjoy it, having two locations.
Jeremy
Yeah. It’s gonna be interesting.
Junaid
Yeah, it’s going to be different—have a different feel to it—I think no matter what they choose to do. Well, unless Luke just drops him right back off back: “No, not this kid, sorry!”
Jeremy
“Dude, you totally screwed this kid up. I can’t teach him anything!” And then it’s just like the montage of the college student who comes home and lives with his parents until he’s 45!
Well, thanks for chatting with me. It was good we finally got it done.
Junaid
Yeah, that was fun!
Jeremy
All right. I’d like to thank Dr. Niazi again for nerding out with me, talking some dad life, and how it relates to Star Wars.
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